I remember seeing this actual episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! and now a good skim of it is up on YouTube. If you're religious don't just pass this by. Think critically and come to you own conclusion.
4 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Hey Steve, I'm a religious Christian, also a neurobiologist and medical devices engineer. I took up your post's suggestion to view the video.
It's preposterous to read the bible for fact. If I were to approach the text as I approach articles submitted for peer-review, I would dismiss the scripture upon its first of many inconsistencies.
The Bible was not written by God, it was written by men, and men compiled the list of books to include or exclude. Nothing made those who compiled the bible many years after Jesus died more "right" than a Christian of today, and as such, critical selection of the lessons rather than "accept all stories or accept none" is requisite to being a good Christian. Each believer develops a compass for what it means to be do right by God, and needs to let that compass guide their interpretations and weighting of events both in their lives and in scripture.
To stop meandering around my central point, being religious is not necessarily being literalist, and well-interpreted scripture combined with faith can serve a pragmatic purpose of keeping one’s thoughts and actions on a positive path for oneself and society. This is particularly true of people who lack the internal strength to act and think positively on their own e.g. convicts and down-and-outs who convert to turn their lives around.
The opposite is true of destructively-interpreted scripture (e.g.: hate gays, hate blacks, hate anyone really), much of which I think ignores the teachings of Jesus.
For the pragmatic reasons above, if someone insults my scripture or even my God, I acknowledge the Bible’s factual inconsistencies, assert the affect faith in the positive message of Jesus can have on an individual, and move on. If someone has no spiritual hollow to fill, lives his life in a humble and upright manner, and never succumbs to moments of despair then how understandable that they don’t believe they need God. However, I also think that most who reach such a conclusion of their own flawlessness should self-examine more thoroughly, identify their flaws which certainly exist, and see what tools there are to make themselves better.
In conclusion, I’m a pragmatist. I follow Jesus and believe his lessons and his word. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t really care as long as the net effect on me as a person is positive. I additionally contend that almost every atheist that knocks religion privately practices irrational behavior in their day-to-day life that, although perhaps making no sense at all, helps them get from point A to point B more smoothly.
I was raised a Christian, but became agnostic and eventually an atheist. The one thing that I always remember being taught is that the Bible was written by God through man. I don't know how universal this teaching is throughout Christianity, but the idea that the Bible is the word of God and infallible is definitely widespread. The question I would have is that if the Bible was written by man alone, then what makes it a useful tool than any other religious text?
I'm glad you are pragmatic about religion, but I do not believe most people are and those are the ones that I disagree with mostly. If someone can take something good out of the Bible and add a positive aspect to their lives and others, than I have no problem with that. I do wish people could come to sensible conclusions about how to live their lives without the use of mysticism, but that is just my personal opinion and admittedly is no better than those who disagree with my point of view.
I think an important aspect to keep in mind for both sides is not to take a holier than thou stance. Many Christians will act as though they have all the answers because the believe in God. At the same time, many atheists act as though they are better than theists because they don't need the "crutch" of religion.
In any case, I think if more people thought more critically about their beliefs, as you are, this would be more peace in the world.
I was raised a Christian, but became agnostic and eventually an atheist.
Ditto. 10 years of atheism then I re-converted about a year ago.
The question I would have is that if the Bible was written by man alone, then what makes it a useful tool than any other religious text?
If there's a text around that fills your spiritual hollow and teaches you to act righteously towards others, then that should do the trick just fine. The bible is the first (therefore best and only) such text I have become intimate with. I don't know how universal this teaching is throughout Christianity, but the idea that the Bible is the word of God and infallible is definitely widespread
Yeah it's unfortunate. I suggest reading this article by Alan Watts, "The World's Most Dangerous Book" The money quote in this case is that the Church adopted "a religion about Jesus instead of the religion of Jesus" So people start to focus on his historical aspects rather than his lesson. As such, if you read the 4 gospels (especially mark, luke, matthew), and the non-canonized gospel of Thomas I think you'll find that Jesus was not at all like the people you detest.
I think an important aspect to keep in mind for both sides is not to take a holier than thou stance.
I agree. For Christians, the appropriate scripture is Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
As for holier-than-thou atheists, what does "better" even mean in this context =P.
Thanks for the link to that article. It was quite a good read and interesting.
I've always thought that if whatever religious or non-religious practices you believe are generally good natured, then why persecute people for it. When I was a Christian I just couldn't get over the fact that everyone thought they had the answer and that everyone else way wrong. I don't think it is a localized mentality either as I was apart of a number of different church congregations. I sort of grew out of it by just realizing I didn't need to be apart of such a community to still be a good person and do good things on this Earth. If there is a god or gods, than that's great. I just feel they will reveal themselves to me in on a personal level if they want me to believe in them, but for the time being I just don't think there is a god based on my personal observations.
As for the holier-than-thou atheists, it really does sound silly in this context. But, I think a general observation can be made in society (not just in religion) that there are a lot of people who are just too arogant for their own good and think they are better than others and have all the answers. A lot of religious people believe that, because they think they've found a special spirituality. Some atheists believe they are better or smarter or something than religious people, because they don't fall pray to the dogma. Both are silly notions and the fact is we are all people just trying to get through life one way or another. Some people have religion and some don't. It's just the way it is.
4 comments:
Hey Steve,
I'm a religious Christian, also a neurobiologist and medical devices engineer. I took up your post's suggestion to view the video.
It's preposterous to read the bible for fact. If I were to approach the text as I approach articles submitted for peer-review, I would dismiss the scripture upon its first of many inconsistencies.
The Bible was not written by God, it was written by men, and men compiled the list of books to include or exclude. Nothing made those who compiled the bible many years after Jesus died more "right" than a Christian of today, and as such, critical selection of the lessons rather than "accept all stories or accept none" is requisite to being a good Christian. Each believer develops a compass for what it means to be do right by God, and needs to let that compass guide their interpretations and weighting of events both in their lives and in scripture.
To stop meandering around my central point, being religious is not necessarily being literalist, and well-interpreted scripture combined with faith can serve a pragmatic purpose of keeping one’s thoughts and actions on a positive path for oneself and society. This is particularly true of people who lack the internal strength to act and think positively on their own e.g. convicts and down-and-outs who convert to turn their lives around.
The opposite is true of destructively-interpreted scripture (e.g.: hate gays, hate blacks, hate anyone really), much of which I think ignores the teachings of Jesus.
For the pragmatic reasons above, if someone insults my scripture or even my God, I acknowledge the Bible’s factual inconsistencies, assert the affect faith in the positive message of Jesus can have on an individual, and move on. If someone has no spiritual hollow to fill, lives his life in a humble and upright manner, and never succumbs to moments of despair then how understandable that they don’t believe they need God. However, I also think that most who reach such a conclusion of their own flawlessness should self-examine more thoroughly, identify their flaws which certainly exist, and see what tools there are to make themselves better.
In conclusion, I’m a pragmatist. I follow Jesus and believe his lessons and his word. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t really care as long as the net effect on me as a person is positive. I additionally contend that almost every atheist that knocks religion privately practices irrational behavior in their day-to-day life that, although perhaps making no sense at all, helps them get from point A to point B more smoothly.
Thank you for your response amendmen7.
I was raised a Christian, but became agnostic and eventually an atheist. The one thing that I always remember being taught is that the Bible was written by God through man. I don't know how universal this teaching is throughout Christianity, but the idea that the Bible is the word of God and infallible is definitely widespread. The question I would have is that if the Bible was written by man alone, then what makes it a useful tool than any other religious text?
I'm glad you are pragmatic about religion, but I do not believe most people are and those are the ones that I disagree with mostly. If someone can take something good out of the Bible and add a positive aspect to their lives and others, than I have no problem with that. I do wish people could come to sensible conclusions about how to live their lives without the use of mysticism, but that is just my personal opinion and admittedly is no better than those who disagree with my point of view.
I think an important aspect to keep in mind for both sides is not to take a holier than thou stance. Many Christians will act as though they have all the answers because the believe in God. At the same time, many atheists act as though they are better than theists because they don't need the "crutch" of religion.
In any case, I think if more people thought more critically about their beliefs, as you are, this would be more peace in the world.
I was raised a Christian, but became agnostic and eventually an atheist.
Ditto. 10 years of atheism then I re-converted about a year ago.
The question I would have is that if the Bible was written by man alone, then what makes it a useful tool than any other religious text?
If there's a text around that fills your spiritual hollow and teaches you to act righteously towards others, then that should do the trick just fine. The bible is the first (therefore best and only) such text I have become intimate with. I don't know how universal this teaching is throughout Christianity, but the idea that the Bible is the word of God and infallible is definitely widespread
Yeah it's unfortunate. I suggest reading this article by Alan Watts, "The World's Most Dangerous Book" The money quote in this case is that the Church adopted "a religion about Jesus instead of the religion of Jesus" So people start to focus on his historical aspects rather than his lesson. As such, if you read the 4 gospels (especially mark, luke, matthew), and the non-canonized gospel of Thomas I think you'll find that Jesus was not at all like the people you detest.
I think an important aspect to keep in mind for both sides is not to take a holier than thou stance.
I agree. For Christians, the appropriate scripture is Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
As for holier-than-thou atheists, what does "better" even mean in this context =P.
Thanks for the link to that article. It was quite a good read and interesting.
I've always thought that if whatever religious or non-religious practices you believe are generally good natured, then why persecute people for it. When I was a Christian I just couldn't get over the fact that everyone thought they had the answer and that everyone else way wrong. I don't think it is a localized mentality either as I was apart of a number of different church congregations. I sort of grew out of it by just realizing I didn't need to be apart of such a community to still be a good person and do good things on this Earth. If there is a god or gods, than that's great. I just feel they will reveal themselves to me in on a personal level if they want me to believe in them, but for the time being I just don't think there is a god based on my personal observations.
As for the holier-than-thou atheists, it really does sound silly in this context. But, I think a general observation can be made in society (not just in religion) that there are a lot of people who are just too arogant for their own good and think they are better than others and have all the answers. A lot of religious people believe that, because they think they've found a special spirituality. Some atheists believe they are better or smarter or something than religious people, because they don't fall pray to the dogma. Both are silly notions and the fact is we are all people just trying to get through life one way or another. Some people have religion and some don't. It's just the way it is.
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